flyingskull ([info]flyingskull) wrote,
@ 2008-09-09 02:56:00
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Current mood: bitchy
Current music:The sound of my teeth gnashing

Canon, Fanon and Eejit Fundies
I should really stop reading fanficrants.



I mean, I read it rarely and comment there even more rarely. I have to be in a very jocular frame of mind to even peek in there because it's a hotbed of the Holier-Than-Thou attitude that I despise, but I can't quite abandon it because I like fanfiction; I like the very concept and creativity of it and I'm fascinated by the 'fan phenomenon'.

So, when I read this post:

Just because you think that a certain thing happened off screen does not make it canon! I have certain things that I believe are likely to have happened, but I know that, since they didn’t happen in the book/movie/game itself, it’s not canon!

Quit saying that the things you put in your story are actually canon. It’s possibly subtext or implied at the best, but not canon. (and quite often not even that…)

Canon is what happened in the original book/film/game/insert-medium-of-choice. Not your fanfic.

So get over yourselves, and stop insisting that everyone else is wrong and your personal fanon is canon.


and all the sheep commenting 'How very true!' I felt Moved by the Spirit of Logic to poke the comm a little and point out how very very very STUPID the OP was and commented:

Er... what is your take on book-derived films, then? Because they certainly are not canon.

For example in the LotR films, Arwen was everywhere stealing lines from all and sundry and generally being insufferably Mary Sueish. And let me not even dwell for a moment on the Massacre of Canon that was Miyazaki's Howl. I mean, the list is quite long.

Would you consider a fic based on the film fanon or canon based?

Then there's Marvel-verse where 9938457033498 mutually contradicting version of stories and characters are all canon. Oh, and there's films as well that condradict the pre-existing stories in the comics.

And what about subtext? What about an author who prefers to allude to things and imply them rather than screaming them from the rooftops? Or an author who subtly uses a tight third person POV to show the limitations and/or skewed worldviews of that character? What about ambiguity?


( Here is the thread)

And wouldn't you know it? Only one person (brilliant [info]xicarus_complex) gets it.

Alright, par for the course and I knew the point would whoosh over most heads, because, no matter what they think of themselves, many of the people in there are ignorant immature snots. But when I read this reply to me:

ME: Oh, and Miyazaki's Howl's Moving Castle which managed to change everything but the names of the characters, destroy the plot and spit on the internal logic of the 'verse.[/me]

And was an absolutely fantastic film.

Which is why we have different canons.


I FOAMED AT THE MOUTH. For two reasons: 1) If a film version is as 'canon' as the book it was derived from, there is NO fanon ever; 2) Miyazaki Howl is utter shit and so fucking AU that it has NOTHING to do with DWJ's novel, like I said, and... Oh. Alright, Three reasons: 1) and 2) as stated and 3) READ THE SODDING BOOKS, YOU ILLITERATE CRETINS, INSTEAD OF SEEING THE FILM AND THINKING YOU KNOW ALL ABOUT SODDING CANON!!!!!111eleventyROAR

No, I mean, really, do these people ever THINK? How do they DARE look down on fanfiction and 'fanon' and consign both to the pit of eternal contempt? When has this hysteria for canon - whatever the fuck that means in terms of real inspiration - taken the place of literary analysis and critical appreciation for THE WORK AT HAND? WHO THE FUCK THEY THINK THEY ARE DECIDING WHAT IS IC AND WHAT IS NOT? WHERE ARE THEIR WELL-THOUGHT ESSAYS ON THE ORIGINAL WORKS? Also, do they have any idea of the true nature of most of Literature, Comicdom and Cinema?

Bloody Shakespeare wrote FANFICS! He also wrote OOC fanfics! At times he barely kept the names of the characters AND made them 'orribly OOC! He wrote slash, for fucksake! Has no-one read the original books and plays he wrote fanficplays about? He used published books and performed plays, you know? His sodding (oh alright, brilliant, lovely masterpieces, but still.) fanficplays are ALL AUs! And so are book/comic-based films or cartoons. All fanfics. Some are good ones and some are awful fanbrattish things, but the fact that they are distributed and the fanfic authors/scriptwriters are paid do NOT them canon make.

Too dead? What about Gaiman, then? Not that he ever denied what he was doing or ever affirmed all the characters in his stories are Originals. What about 90% of past and present authors? WHAT ABOUT FUCKING HOLLYWOOD, AY? WHAT ABOUT THE FUCKING SODDING HOLLYWOOD TAKE ON EVERYTHING‽ (interrobang. Don't you just love it?)

Right, sorry for rant. Let's try and say this with a modicum of decorum this time.

There's nothing more arbitrary - and annoying - than the self-defined elite of fanfiction's decisions about what is and is not 'canon compliant', mostly because their definition of canon itself is as fluid and irrational as that of any twelve year old in love with a story. I'm quite sure that for some of them all this canon blathering is an alibi and excuse to diss the thing they personally hate (slash, for example) and feel righteous about it; but I'm also sure that some of them truly believe that this mythical entity Canon exists and must be conformed to in the most literal sense. For them authors are not allowed to have subtext, allusions, innuendo or ambiguity. Only the written word, book or script, is valid. Characters never change, but are embedded like flies in amber, fossilised and never developing.

I really don't know why they call themselves 'canon-nazis' - well, except they know absolutely nothing about history and nazism, of course - when what they actually are is Fundies. They have NO imagination, no empathy, no critical faculties and no wish to explore the possibilities implicit in any story: actually, the worst 'canon' is, the most possibilities it has.

I think fanfiction is an ancient, noble and respectable art. I think the passion even the worst twelve year olds pour into remaking stories they love is just as noble and respectable even when the results are lamentable. I think writing - no matter how badly - is a wonderful activity, especially for the young ones. I think having fun with stories one loves - or despises, for that matter, that's what parody is for - is one of the higher forms of intellectual exercise. I think Role Playing is a noble and creative thing even when it's a form of fanfiction. AND I think canon is a shit word that must be eliminated because it murks the water and creates loathsome hierarchies and cliques.

In other words, yes, in a canonless context I can accept even Miyazaki's Howl as a VERY VERY AU fanfic that's not ALL bad, but in a canon context? Fantard OOC filth. And this goes for the LotR and HP films as well. Fen, choose a context and for fucksake ADHERE to it. Short-Fused Jane hath spoken. :P

On a not entirely unrelated note, I've posted this fanfic in my other journal. It's rather oldish and I was quite proud of it, BUT illiterate fundies decided is was plagiarised. I suppose because my parrot ear reproduced Pterry's style a little too well and had it - and my old account at FFN... yeh, I know, Pit of Voles and all the rest - taken down with extreme prejudice. It's only a brief first chapter, so it shouldn't be too tl;dr, but tell me truthfully: does it look plagiarised to you?

*bites her nails in anxiety*




(30 comments) - (Post a new comment)

canonrant etc.
[info]kestrelsparhawk
2008-09-09 05:02 am UTC (link)
Well, I don't know xmen very well (Pratchett a bit better)but it looks nicely written and I know neither the Xmen writers nor Pratchett cross over with each other, so the only one you could have plagiarized from is another writer. since you're smart and write well (as witness the lovely rant above) I see no reason to suspect you didn't write it! Is that good enough? (and yes, btw, I'd like to know whPat happened next.)

I actually liked Miyazaki's Howl, even though I LOVE the DWD story and there's not much overlap. When I was writing LOTR slash, we were expected (by the community; no official rule)to say "book canon" or "movie canon" or what was being combined from them.

Personally, I find it useful to know where something's headed. I don't dislike AU's, but I want to know what will be different than I expect in canon. The FARTHER it is (and characterization, not plot, is the most important to me of the various ways someone can be deviating from canon)the harder they're going to have to work at doing something else clever, because I was attracted to a particular fanverse because of the canon. Does that make sense? I believe (and think I'm agreeing with a comment you made) that we should be meta-thinking. In fact, I'm putting together a post on what I think Harry's character is, and why, partly in case anyone ever questions if I got Harry right in my fiction. And the favourite story I ever wrote in LOTR deliberately set out to stick as close to canon as possible; to slash every slashable moment and make sure that my scenes believably happened just "offstage" from Tolkien's scenes.

In short, I agree that some people can be really judgmental in assumptions which really are personal taste -- but there are good reasons to defend a "canon" concept as well, if only to warn when deviating.

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Re: canonrant etc.
[info]flyingskull
2008-09-09 08:47 pm UTC (link)
Heh... thanks for kind words. Actually what the eejits ay GAFF said was that I had taken a (mysterious) real Pterry scene between Vimes and some thief and just put the name 'Gambit' in it. Which proves they hadn't read Pterry as there's never even one tiny scene between Vimes and a thief. Not once. Not EVER. *sigh*

I don't dislike AU's, but I want to know what will be different than I expect in canon.

Yes, but my point is exactly that EVERY fanfic is AU. To be utterly IC nothing new can happen. Also, according to that sodding OP, nothing is supposed to happen between the scenes. I can't even imagine a fic like that, but I'm sure it'd be the boringest thing on Earth.

I agree AGREE AGREE that the validity - or lack of it - in a fanfic is all (alrght is 70%) based on how the author understands and respects the character in the original story. The rest being respecting and shering to the rules of the fictional 'verse. If you slashed LotR, for example, you were by canon-fundies' definition OOC. Acuz ol' Tolkien didn't hold with sex. AT ALL. Personally I think that this fact makes LotR 'canon' a prime target for speculation because NO-ONE can convince me that that paragon of masochism, Aragorn, waited seventy years (or more, I don't remember) to have sex. HA! He'd have been all over the serving wenches in taverns and, possibly, his fellow rangers in the wild. You can sell to me an Unearthly Species, like the Elves, has NO sex drive, but you can't sell to me a normal human person can go forever to wait to have a fuck.

In other words: the worse the canon, the more interesting fanfics can be.

I think I've yelled at you before about this, but:

MAKE THAT POST!!!

Also, yeh, I'm all for respecting the author, but if people include anything that gets published and paid for as canon then there is no author to respect and I can write what I damn well please - which would be crossover slash most of the time because it's FUN. After all, that's what Miyazaki and Jackson did, dint they? :P:P:P

Well, I'm not sure about warning when deviating. I get mightily tired reading "this fic was written after HBP (for example) and is now AU" or somesuch. I would love to see warnings like this "This may look like an HP fic, but I've actually changed the basic premises of the characters because JKR does it anyway. Oh, and I've also changed what passes as laws in HPverse because I don't like them". Which is what the term AU would seem to imply. but actually it doesn't. Besides, who would write such a warning?

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Re: canonrant etc.
[info]kestrelsparhawk
2008-09-10 01:28 am UTC (link)
I think the solution there (the warning silliness) is not to read the warnings unless there are things you specifically are looking for.. My brain just bounces over the AU or whatever generally, but throws red flags in all directions at "character death" or even (not a traditional one) "unhappy ending."

Vimes with a thief? Well, I haven't read every bit of Pratchett, but the only interaction I can remember is with a would-be assassin in training. Which was nothing like yours. Silly peoples.

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Re: canonrant etc.
[info]flyingskull
2008-09-12 08:09 pm UTC (link)
I think the solution there (the warning silliness) is not to read the warnings

Yeh, I generally don't. Haven't seen warnings on books like on HPB (warning: Sirious death inside) and am used to read things without having to know what happens beforehand. OTOH, I never mind spoilers because plot is the last thing to interest me - alright, provided there is one and it's not worse than swiss cheese for holes - when I read. I read for style and characters, to be honest. Anyway, yeh I agree. :-D

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[info]fjm
2008-09-09 06:20 am UTC (link)
So: you are looking for an opportunity to turn the comments on Miyakzaki into a killer paper on pro fan fic and its relationship to canon? Yes?

Oh good.

There is a conference on DWJ 3-5th of July in Bristol, and this is *exactly* the kind of paper we want.

farah dot sf @gmail dot com for details.

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-09 08:49 pm UTC (link)
Er... You do have a way with you when asking things, don't you?

FJM and The Way Of The Menace. :)

Yeh, if you think I can and I'll email you tomorrow or the day after because an old aunt of a friend of mine died and now I have to go to the wake which means I'll be hors de combat for at least 48 hours.

Thanks, I'm honoured.

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[info]fjm
2008-09-10 06:24 am UTC (link)
Very, very sorry about the Aunt. But I will look forward to hearing from you.

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-12 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Just wrote a brief email. Awaiting your answer with bated breath... well bated up to a point, but you get my drift.

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[info]baeraad
2008-09-09 08:32 pm UTC (link)
Hmm, a topic that I think is a little tricky for me to get into, since I don't really do fanfiction most of the time. But let's make a token effort...

I would agree that canon is what is the author wrote down and intended, for whatever that is worth. But I don't really see how you can write fanfiction if you care about that sort of thing. Anything the author didn't say happen didn't happen, so technically all fanfiction is AU.

As far as the Marvel universe - and similar places of frequent retconning - goes, I'd say that there you have an eternally shifting canon. Which is yet another reason not to care about it so much in the first place, which I guess was your point.

As far as movies based on books and the likes go, though, I would say that there you are quite obviously dealing with two different canons. Or more generally, if you tell a story which is a retelling of an older story, then you have two stories, each of which has its own rules and timeline. So it's really quite pointless to bring one of them into a discussion of the other.

Oh, I remember that chapter. :) Plagiarised? Uhhhmmmmm... no? Not that I can see.

No, I don't imagine that this reply was very useful - but what do you expect from someone who has only the most cursory knowledge of fanfiction? ;)

PS. I tend to avoid nonspecific rant communities myself, these days. With specific rant communities, at the very least, you can be sure when you join that people there have the sense to hate something worth hating. Communities for ranting about and mocking almost anything will invariably attract posters who are even dumber than the things they are ranting about and mocking. ;) DS.

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-09 08:52 pm UTC (link)
Oh fuck, have to go to a wake. I need clear head and time to post reply because, as usual, you've hit on a couple of point I'd like to debate with you. At gun point, if necessary. :-D

Reply forthcoming soon.

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-12 08:39 pm UTC (link)
You know, on mature - HA! - reflection I shoudl have turned that rant on his head and raved about the fact that even the people who do nothing but write and read fanfics look DOWN on that activity.

Problem is the only fact they take into account is if the author is paid or not. There are published (and distributed in case of films) PAID pro-fanfic writers out there. The fact that they are paid doesn't make what they write any less fanfiction. Look at all the Star Wars books: they are clearly fanfiction - also unreadable, so I haven't read them, am NOT a maso - that has been approved of and paid for.

I would agree that canon is what is the author wrote down and intended, for whatever that is worth.

Well, yes.

But I don't really see how you can write fanfiction if you care about that sort of thing. Anything the author didn't say happen didn't happen, so technically all fanfiction is AU.

Well, no. When one reads a book one likes - very much, not too much, hate to death, whatever - one tends to fill in the blanks the author purposefully left in the story mostly because no-one wants 9834571435743 pages of the hero/ine/s going to the loo, washing their clothes - or being shunned because they stink to high heaven - walking for miles with nothing but scenery happening... that sort of thing. I mean there are authors who do. but not even Tolkien can get away with it. Characters' inner and outer being too are not described in excruciating details because, really!

The author may also have made use of layers, subtext, allusion and ambiguity. No two people read the exact same book because of this. There's nothing odd, if your mind goes that way, in making up stories about those blanks, or allusions, or subtext etc. Also, writing it down doesn't an AU make. actually because AU means Another Universe and should only be applied to stories in which the characters of Book A do not operate in the Book A's verse anymore. Like A Yankee at King Arthur's Court took a - for Twain - contemporary American citizen and injected him into Malory's 'verse. Twain wrote AU fanfiction EXACTLY like a twelve year old fantard, complete with Mary Sue (Gary Stu, actually) and OOC characters.

AU doesnt' mean: "Tolkien says that Aragorn never had sex for seventy years, but I'm having him have a quick one behind the tavern with a serving wench because Aragorn is human and he decided that A Quick One Behind The Tavern With The Red-head With The Huge Bosom Is Not Really Sex, No Really, It Took Just A Minute And I Don't Even Know Her Sodding Name. This may be not very canon-compliant, but definitely NOT AU.

Yes, well, fanficrants has a specific target: bad fanfction. The problem, as always, is that the definition of 'bad' is SOOOOOOOOOO elastic.

Oh, and the film thing. Retelling a story is fanfiction. Taking just the characters' names and ignoring everything that makes that story that story (as plot, laws of the 'verse, key points in characterisation and development) is VERY VERY VERY BAD fanfction and I don't care if it is a film seen by millions. Have you seen Miyazaki's massacre of Le Guinn Earthsea? It makes strong women - and men - cry with frustrated FURY!

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[info]baeraad
2008-09-13 01:27 pm UTC (link)
I have read a Star Wars novel or two. You didn't miss anything. The Star Wars universe is really a very stupid place. Anyway, yes, that's definitely fanfiction, though fanfiction that is (sometimes) considered canon even by the original author.

Well, no. When one reads a book one likes - very much, not too much, hate to death, whatever - one tends to fill in the blanks the author purposefully left in the story

We may here have touched upon the reason why I could never figure out how to write fanfiction. You see, I sort of... well... don't do that. ^_^;

I never saw the point, really. I mean, the characters aren't human - they are the author's representation of what humans are like. I couldn't write someone else's characters, not really. Any character I wrote would be my representation of what humans are like - per definition a different character than the original author's.

As far as the Aragorn thing goes, one of the rules of Tolkien's universe is that yes, people can go seventy years without even thinking about getting laid. That's a bad rule and in violation of what we know to be true in the real world. But it is a rule of that universe. If you change it, even if it's to make the characters behave more like people and less like the cardboard cutouts Tolkien favoured, then it's not the same universe anymore.

Yes, well, fanficrants has a specific target: bad fanfction.

Much too wide an area for people there to be reasonable. I should formulate some sort of law on the subject sometime. Something like, "as the size of an area of complaint approaches infinity, the percentage of complainers whose complaints are stupid and unreasonable approaches one hundred percent." ;)

Retelling a story is fanfiction.

I guess. But a fanfiction story is a story, too, and so has a canon of its own. The fact that it's based on something else doesn't enter into it - there are still things that are true within the context of the story, things that happened, characters who function in a certain way... Every story written is an original work, the only question is whether it's different enough from other stories that you can charge money for it without getting sued. =]

Have you seen Miyazaki's massacre of Le Guinn Earthsea?

I am happy to say I have managed to avoid it. Is it very, very bad?

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-17 12:08 am UTC (link)
Every story written is an original work, the only question is whether it's different enough from other stories that you can charge money for it without getting sued. =]

YES!

See? That's exactly what I meant. It took me 7625687 ranting words and you 1 (ONE) sentence to say it. *sigh*

Miyazaki's Earthsea is an abomination unto literature, intelligence and art. It even manages to make his massacre of Howl look decent. I couldn't see it all, my body was rebelling so hard I had a headache, my stomach wanted to explode out of my mouth and my liver was boiling. 'Very, very bad' is an incredibly euphemistic way to describe it. *vomits*

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-10 03:16 am UTC (link)
I know from different canons; heck, my main fandom has at least five different canons. Six, if you want to count the TV series, which some people don't since it's been taken almost verbatim from the manga. I feel completely free to combine elements of the canons I like, disregard the ones I don't, and invent those that interest me.

Speaking of canon fundies, have you heard about the so-called Protectors of the Plot Continum? Canon fundies at their absolute worst. I just hope I don't end up running into any of them in my fandoms. Though the multiple-canons some of them have just might melt their tiny little brains. Hey, I can hope. ;)

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-12 08:16 pm UTC (link)
Speaking of canon fundies, have you heard about the so-called Protectors of the Plot Continum?

No. Tell me ALL. Who the fuck are they and how do they wreck havoc on poor fanfic writers? Bunch of self-appointed Olympus of triteness, I bet.

On an utterly unrelated note, I've been reading Fullmetal Alchemist, the manga. This because I swear that everything they send me from the USA is in a waterproof parcel tied to the head of a seventyfive year old who then proceeds to swim the Atlantic. I'm STILL waiting for the cartoon I ordered in JULY!

I think I will have to wax criticquey about it - and made poor [info]baeraad gnash his teeth - by having a full-blown post about the thing. Author is clearly in LOVE with Moebius. Wily woman.

Sorry about delaying your review, but aunt of a friend died and I had to go to the wake and THEN I had to have a lie-down of epic proportion as I shouldn't drink too much, having no spleen no more (sounds like a song, doesn't it?) and too muck I drunk. WHEEEEEEEEEEE!

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-13 03:27 am UTC (link)
See my response below.

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-13 03:25 am UTC (link)
Oh yes, that's one of the many reasons I just love the series. Even when you think you know just what makes any one of those characters tick, she throws you for a loop with the next revalation. :D The Homunculi were some of my favorites, but I do kind of prefer the anime's take on them.

If you've read that far, what do you think of the TSVs in the manga?

Oh, and on the subject of the review: don't worry so much about it. I understand that life comes before fanfiction. I'm sorry about your friend's aunt, and your hangover. ;) And I do hope you remember not to drink so much next time. ;D

On the subject of the PPC, I think I shall let one of their own insipid 'reviews' speak for them:

Oh, NO. You did NOT just have SG-1 join the Fellowship. But you DID. Do you know what that means, "Writegirl"? That means you're in TROUBLE. Forget me being your fracking BETA, I'm gonna be the PPC Agent that SHUTS YOU DOWN. Here's the Official Notification:

Dear Miss "Writegirl",
I regret to inform you that as agents of the Protectors of the Plot Continuum, my partner and I will be shutting down your story sometime soon. You may wish to take the story down after we do so, as I will inform you when we have finished completely decimating what you consider to be your "art".
Sincerely,
Jasmine Moramar and Marie Nihthroc

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-13 09:22 am UTC (link)
TSV? I've read 17 volumes in the manga, in the French translation :-D mostly because the American translators always seem to go a tad overboard and put in a LOT of USA pop culture references that aren't there. French translators seem a bit staid - not too much, though - but at least they don't fly off the handle. Also, as I said, parcels from the USA take forever to get here.

What's with Japanese authors and their unholy fixation with Kaiser's Germany?

I see I'll have to have a FMA icon, now. Hmm... juxaposition with Moebius? Hmm...

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-13 09:17 pm UTC (link)
Furer King Bradley? Zolf J. Kimblee? ;) Or maybe that was just in the anime. ^_^;

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-16 11:59 pm UTC (link)
AH. Hmm... well Kimblee seems to be just your garden variety of batshit insane grunt sociopath, actually: a song of one note.

King Bradley could be. I really didn't classify the Homunculi as human or as very three dimensional, so the idea didn't occur. But now I think better on it, yeh, King Bradley could be a TSV; he started out human, after all.

Oh, and I got the anime AT LAST! And also, GAAAAAHHHHH! It's only the dubbed version! I want to hear the original VAs! American can't dub to save their life! It's HORRIBLE! That flat monotone... the sameness of the voices... the absolute absence of any fun in the proceeding...

Also, I've seen the first four episodes and ALREADY they miss the fucking POINT. Gear up for another rant, my friend. :-D

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-17 12:30 am UTC (link)
Huh; mine has dual language-tracks. You've tried switching languages and it doesn't work?

Yeah, Kimblee's pretty much stuck on 'blow shit up', but at least he's fun. ;D

I'm not quite clear on how the anime misses the point of the manga - as far as I could see, the two stories were the same overall, up to the point with Greed - but I'm sure you have your reasons for saying that. ;)

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-17 04:42 am UTC (link)
We-ell... I got it cheap. Which has taught me a lesson. Have ordered the non-illegal one. At least, I think it was pirated from TV. What is [adult swim]?

Kimblee is pure fun love, but he has to be taken in short doses or he gets kinda boring.

The point - I WILL wax a lot on FMA and, as I said, it's all YOUR fault! :P - is that Ed and Izumi and Al, when he remembers, can do the Full Body Circle or Clap Your Hands And Wish For Things thing BECAUSE they have all seen what Ed calls the Truth when they were at Death's Door (BTW, WTF gate? That's a door or the Impressive Style of Architecture) and were force-fed info onn Life, the Universe and Everything. Great, now I picture all three of them yelling 42! with mad abandon every time they clap hands. Also, must be a killer in the theatre or at concerts. Luckily Amestris doesn't seem to have any of those.

Ahem. Sorry. I mean the point is they can't do the clapping thing because they are supercool, but because they have goen through the door. It's an important point, IMO, and the anime ignores it utterly. Also, I've seen more eps. It's not a bad anime, actually. It's just... Look, I'll post about it, because this whole book/film thing is starting to bug me a lot.

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-18 02:39 am UTC (link)
Ed can do the clapping thing because he saw the "Truth" beyond the Gate, and so can Izumi. They show that in one of the latter episodes, which I see you haven't reached yet. ;) The anime only diverges from the manga's storyline once Greed is killed.

Well... that and the anime has a different main villan.

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-18 02:56 am UTC (link)
AAAAHHHHH! Alrighty, then. I'll watch the whole thing and then I'll blab.

Right, I'll need your help to persuade [info]baeraad to watch the anime at least. I KNOW he'll love it.

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-18 04:58 am UTC (link)
Right, will keep that in mind. ;D

Incidentally, since you presumably started out with the first episode, how did you get the impression that what Ed does was commonplace? All of the people he met on the way to Central - Majahal, Bald, Col. Mustang, even King Bradley himself - seemed surprised at what he could do.

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-18 05:19 am UTC (link)
Nonono, not commonplace, but it looked like Ed could Clap!Alcheme! because he was a SUPERCOOL HERO BWAH! and that pissed me off not a little.

Anyway, I've discovered a worse sin - though I'm the first to say that the anime is really good if one hasn't read the manga - and that is poor Roy "True Bastard Hero" Mustang's character assassination. Though I'll grudgingly admit I can see why they did it. :(

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-18 05:35 am UTC (link)
Eh? I'm unaware of such a thing; when did this happen and was I too busy lusting after Travis Willingham why didn't I notice it?

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-19 10:25 pm UTC (link)
Hehehe... maybe you were too busy lusting or maybe I'm hypersensitive to things, but...

You know, to me it makes a world of difference if Roy realises he is becoming the thing he hates by committing genocide at Ishbar because he's killing enemies or if he realises it because he's just killed HIS OWN PEOPLE. The anime makes him racist and chauvinist and altogether just a bastard - sexy bastard, yes, but sexy is not enough - and not a hero. FMA is about ethics and moral choices, after all.

I really have to make a long post about this.

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[info]ingriam
2008-09-19 11:23 pm UTC (link)
Well, I'll confess that in the early episodes of the anime, he does look like that kind of person. But, once you reach episode 13, you start to realize just how many issues our dear Mustang has with what he did there. And, I'll just say this: if you don't love him by episode 25, then the manga is clearly much more differant than I had been lead to belive. ;)

Oh, and here's a list of the DVDs, so you don't end up getting bootlegs again:

1. The Curse
2. Scarred Man of the East
3. Equivalent Exchange
4. the Fall of Ishbal
5. the Cost of Living
6. Captured Souls
7. Reunion on Yock Island
8. the Altar of Stone
9. Pain and Lust
10. Journey to Ishbal
11. Becoming the Stone
12. the Truth Behind Truths
13. Brotherhood

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[info]flyingskull
2008-09-23 05:56 am UTC (link)
I got the official version, AT LAST! Yay. I found out that the person writing the dubbing script took a lot of liberties with the text. Everything makes much more sense in the subtitles.

Thanks for the list, luv, much appreciated. I see that, as always I was unclear in my replies to you. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the anime, it's just that I love the manga more because 1) I prefer reading to watching films and 2) the manga has more space to get subtle and less adventurous - for a value of 'less', though, plenty things happen - and to explore some issues. They are two different kind of stories as it is: the manga is a girls' story - as Gaiman would say - and the anime is a boys' story. Both are very enjoyable.

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