flyingskull ([info]flyingskull) wrote,
@ 2007-11-03 00:33:00
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Current mood: het up yet fascinated
Current music:Symphony X - Paradise Lost - A Masterpiece

Yeah, I know....
... I've been procrastinating like a very procrastinating thing, but... but well, it seems I've turned out to be a bit of a coward, after all.

It's all Joss Sodding Whedon's fault!



Alright, no, it's my fault because my probbo is that I have to diss Firefly for reason of personal integrity, but, at the same time, I'm not that keen on seeming to diss on my friends' taste. Anyway, I have too much respect of their intelligence, so here it goes and the devil take the hindmost!

So Firefly is not exactly bad per se, it's got its moments, it's entertaining up to a point and certainly doesn't require the audience to exercise their brain to get what La Whedon wants audiences to get. JKR's much touted anvils have nothing on the man's Everest-sized ones. But, not unenjoyable at all. Actually first viewing, if done while silghtly intoxicated, is quite pleasant. But then my brain, no matter how torpid at that point, kept screaming things at me I couldn't successfully ignore.

It's a fucking western for fucksake! Alright, this is only pertinent to me as westerns bore me to tears. I see nothing romantic or even remotely interesting about a genocide retold so it was all the victims' fault. Well, obviously, in this case we have all the trappings and none of the injuns who tend to make modern westerns so embarassing, so a minor point.

Then we have a Baldwin! ANOTHER FUCKING SODDING BLOODY BALDWIN! WHAT ARE THEY? THE WEASLEYS OF HOLLYWOOD? ONE BIG FUCKING HAPPY BALDWIN PANTS-AT-ACTING FAMILY? GAAAAAAAAAH! It's Jayne. I thought I had seen his face in - I am truly sorry but I can't remember whose icon it was -somebody's icon and, though I hadn't seen his face, it's a Baldwin's face, of course I'd seen the clone somewhere. UGH.

Then the women. Could one be more cliché if one tried? Nope. Cliché women to a man. Zoe... why the fuck did Mal have to go in drag when he has a perfect homicidal maniac female second-in-command? One can be forgiven to think actually Mal wanted to be a lumberjack and wear suspenders and a brarh just like his dear mamarh which should segue into my only real beef with series, but that's for later - Zoe is a man in drag. I know, it's tragic, but what can one do? I actually would have preferred it a LOT if Zoe was an actual male man in actual drag, it would have been not only funnier, but also more credible. The whore... well, she's almost alright as a character if she din't have a secret crush on Mal. Instead of having a bona fide intelligent whore, for once, a cold hearted mercenary bitch, yes, but NOT stupid; an independent female figure who's using male supremacy devices for her own good in spite of the culture, which would have been interesting. But no, we can't make Bush cry, now, can we? SO she's another much cherished male chauvinistic cliché: the tart with a golden heart. *sigh* And what of the grease monkey? Nothing, really. She don't really exist except as a sort of token female-in-male profession thingie. Chewbacca has more lines than her! Also more personality. Also, she is in love with Mal as well and truly fuck knows why because I'd rather be eaten by rabid penguins than have sex with Mal.

Not because he's ugly - alright, he's not my type bu he ain't ugly - but because he has NO PERSONALITY WHATSOEVER.

But all of the above are not real problems, or better, they are minor effects of the real problem of this thing. It's shallow. It has no layers. It means absolutely nothing but: "I, Joss Sodding Whedon, being convinced that stealing quips left, right and centre and repeating a formula to annihilation, hereby proclaim I am TEH WIT of the world and all I write shall be based on how many quips I can cram into a 40' TV thingy." Also, it's the absolute worst of USA culture made tangible. There's no flight of imagination, everyone is a 100% red-blooded American - and I must say that the faux Chinese really irritated me, rilly rilly RILLY RILLY irritated me, languages express cultures, not random sounds, you sodding illiterate! - and space is USA, only bigger, only not really bigger. It's all small village stuff, there's no sense of infinite possibilities in there. And did I mention it's SHALLOW? Actually it's a lot like HP. Author has a set of arbitrary rules for right and wrong and there you go, the whole universe is no bigger and no more varied than a four room flat.

In their infinite imbecillity - well, alright, am paradoxing here, I know it's not really true - comics manage to be more open to differences than Mr Whedon's tiny lil universe - his mind is tiny, petty and closed tight. He's truly JKR's ideal husband. And when I say comics I'm not talking about the best of them, but about the worst.

I thought he had taken the central idea from Paul Anderson, but - though he has - that doesn't matter, because Paul Anderson had the literacy, intelligence and self-irony to use a mixture of pirates and Phoenicians for his daring Space Merchants (seamen) Astronauts. The stories are spiffy AND witty AND they are a lovely satiric commentary on capitalism and Merchant Ventures and his characters are people from different cultures who manage to express their fucking differences in startling and interesting ways. So I take it back. Whedon has learned nothing at all from Anderson.

And to jump to a different thing altogether. Symphony X - the favourite band of a friend of mine who's dead now, but who was a GREAT human being - have made a cantata based on Milton's Paradise Lost, only... Well it's a love story, in a sense. First there's the love story between Lucifer and God; then God betrays Lucifer and he - broken hearted - seeks revenge and damages himself and the world; then he falls in love with humanity and renounces immortality and all the trappings of a God-ordered reality; then he becomes human but a human who will never anymore bend to the 'Good and Evil' vision of reality; the thing ends with Lucifer trying to find a way to be a person whose moral sphere is human and relative. NOW this has layers, depth and an interesting take on things. I'm quite sure they know Sandman, but it's more of an impression of a take on a character. There are no direct or indirect quotes. Veeeeeeeeeery fascinating. And the music is not half bad as well.

In the midst of all this, I've also realised I can't stand Just For The Sake Of It Violence and Ultimate Solution To Everything Violence. It's BORING! I don't really mind anything, if it has some sense in the story, but I can't be having with this 'shoot 'em first, think later' attitude that seems to permeate everything lately. I haven't seen a film or watched TV for months because of this. I mean, DWJ, Pterry, Gaiman, and lots more authors use violence to underline a point or illustrate a situation or culture or what-the-fucking-ever, but they are NEVER used by violence or tricked into implying that it solves problems. Oh, and back to Firefly, who the fuck cares about the Evil Empire of Evilness when the stories and characters couldn't give a Fire-flying fuck about politics, social values or anything but the good ol' American dream of making money by screwing everyone else? Are they rebels? Nope. Are they organising a resistance movement? Nope. So who gives a fuck about Evil Empires? What they are - and this is really TEH PITS - is Conferates against Yankees. Bunch of Scarlet O'Haras to a man. Yay Hollywood, down New York, that kind of retarted thing.

Alright, that's all. Hope I haven't offended anyone.




(24 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]ingriam
2007-11-03 02:01 am UTC (link)
So, I take it you weren't so fond of it. ;) Maybe you'll like Fullmetal Alchemist better, once you've seen it. At the very least, there's no Evil Empire. ;)

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[info]flyingskull
2007-11-03 04:08 am UTC (link)
It's not the Evil Empire per se. I mean, Star Wars has an Evil Empire and because of that we have protagonists all over the place trying to overthrow it. That's he whole point to an evil empire, that the protagonists want to annihilate it!

No, I wasn't enamoured of it, also Whedon's wit is... not witty, actually. Comic book battle quips galore. I can quote you reams of that stuff and, though nice and quippy, it's ultimately useless. The obverse side of wangst, methinks.

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[info]elena_takami
2007-11-03 12:04 pm UTC (link)
I watched it in "brain turned off even more than usual" mode, where it was actually kind of fun. It is not a show that requires thinking, though.

Mind you, being english, we don't see so many westerns over here, and we don't live in the aftermath of any either. So that wasn't irritating me.

Zoe, Kaylee and whats-her-name do seem to be stuck well over in manga-land, though, oddly enough. Perky schoolgirls (and Kaylee is at heart a perky schoolgirl, just slightly older than most), competent female second in commands and graceful smart beauties who never do anything with those brains comprise 90% of female manga characters. (I'm gonna have to hunt down my min-essay on that now. *sigh*)

And on that note, a brief warning; if you don't like Kaylee and Zoe, you probably won't like the major female characters in FMA either. =P

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[info]flyingskull
2007-11-03 06:00 pm UTC (link)
Well, I did say that it was pleasant viewing when mildy intoxicated. :-D

You're absolutely right about the women being manga types. I want, nay, DEMAND to read your essay, do hunt it down, please! Pleasepleaseplease!

Female characters in adventure stories do tend to be stereotypes. I think part of the problem is that there's no real place for females in 'boy stories' as Gaiman calls them in this culture. Some authors manage to circumvent this and some - not necessarily bad ones - don't. I'll have to see FMA to see how the female characters are treated by the author (authors? Who is it by?) and I mean to see it, now my curiosity is piqued.

I have the direst suspicion I've been spoiled rotten by Murakami in mangaland. Her female characters are uniformly interesting, thought-provoking and non cliché. Yeah, even that cliché made flesh that is Rage. *G* And, BTW, if Zoe had been more like Rage I'd have loved her. Actually I'd love to read a crossover in which Rage were to join Serenity's crew... GAH, plotbunny from hell!

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[info]elena_takami
2007-11-04 12:02 am UTC (link)
It really is a [i]mini[/i]-essay, but it's up in my journal as the latest entry =P It was mostly provoked by discussion of that image (Warning; Not so much with the work safe!) and its Japanese artist, so it was an answer to a comment on how the artist could draw what are supposed to be three highly independent, very strong women in what looks like a highly submissive pose.

FMA (or at least the manga) is written by Hiromu Arakawa; the anime diverges fairly early though, I'm told. And I dropped it fairly early, although it's actually a fairly fun read. Fanfic actually put me off, especially with the pairings fanwriters seemed to like. But as far as I read, there was only one female character I actually liked and she was a very minor librarian with a photographic memory.

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[info]elena_takami
2007-11-04 12:03 am UTC (link)
... Why did I use BBCode in a html post? I do not know. x.x

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[info]baeraad
2007-11-03 01:09 pm UTC (link)
*laughs helplessly* Ahhh... I take it you were less than impressed... =]

Well, you are perfectly right in much of what you say, and I say that as a fan of the series. I can certainly see why it wouldn't appeal to you, so no worries on offending me. But I wouldn't be me if I didn't argue a little... ;)

The Americanism... well, yeah. That bugged me too. There were a few times when I just wanted to slap Mal for being so damn American. He picks on Inara for her legal and perfectly harmless job, but stealing is "honest work"? (*groans*) Anyone who gets that nervous about sex while at the same time having an ill-concealed fascination for violence (and other, let's call them, predatory activities like stealing) is either a fundamentalist or an American, and the categories do so often overlap... =]

And yes, an entire solar system has become America. That's... incredibly stupid, really - realism sacrificed for the sake of making this "Western in space" thing work.

At the same time, I'm not sure about the anvils. In fact, I tend to think that the utter lack of anvils is a problem. I mean, we keep complaining about authors who so clearly has an ax to grind and who doesn't let their characters deal with the world in their own way, by their own morals. But the opposite, where the author completely disowns all responsibility and lets the characters run loose - well, that's problematic too. Sometimes characters need to be slapped down for their stupid beliefs.

To whit; Mal is a fool and a hypocrite, thinking that he's entitled to break any law in the name of "freedom." That doesn't make him an invalid character, but it would be nice if there were a few more indications that the writers didn't agree with Mal - as it is, it feels kind of like they're preaching anarchy. I don't think they really are, though. I think it's kind of like with a Gary Stu only the other way around - instead of a character always having the accurate perception of the world, Mal's perception of the world becomes what the world is really like.

I'm not sure that made any sense at all. ^_^;; Perhaps a simpler way of putting would be that the writers seem to prioritise the Western adventure "feel" over what is actually reasonable or moral.

Zoe is a man in drag.

Hrm. We've already had a few spirited discussions about what makes a credible female character, I think. We might just have to agree to disagree on that one...

The Mal-Inara crush thing is a bit annoying, I agree. Mal is a complete and utter ass to her most of the time, so really, I fail to see the attraction. Dunno about the "tart with a heart of gold," though - at least within the context of her own world, she's a lot more respectable, a lot more socially acceptable, than any of the other characters. Doesn't the "tart with a heart of gold" thing depend on the default assumption that the "tart" is inherently a bad person and therefore the "heart of gold" comes as a surprise ?(only it doesn't, because it's a huge cliché, but you know what I mean) As such, I'm not sure it applies to a world where a Companion is someone with education, power and prestige?

As for the Alliance... well, I actually kind of liked that the heroes lived under an oppressive regime and weren't working to overthrow it, but just trying to get by. Evil empires are always getting overthrown with embarrassing ease - it was nice to see one that seemed to have some staying power. =]

Mind you, yes, the fact that the Alliance is the American North and the Independents are the slaver South, and that Mal still insists that he fought on the right side is disturbing. I mean, the Independents weren't slavers and the Alliance really does have some tremendous assholes in charge of it, but it still makes it feel uncomfortable - like some kind of rewriting of history. I seem to understand what Whedon mostly wanted was a story about someone who had been on the losing side in a war, and that he got that idea from reading about the Civil War, but it might have been better if he had removed the result a few more steps from the inspiration - as it is, it's so painfully clear what he's talking about.

So... some agreement with you, some disagreement, still love the series though. =]

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[info]flyingskull
2007-11-04 11:45 pm UTC (link)
Right, first of all sodding fucking bloody bastard LJ seems to hav stopped sending me postings in email so I had to come in a check and... look, sorry, wasn't ignoring you or anyone else, loathsome livejournal DOES NOT SEND ME POSTS. Prolly a shit conspiracy against lit crit.

So, now to you. Am SO glad I made you laugh! It's one of my goals in life. Truly it is. I pat self on the back every time I see your *laughs helplessly*. Of course you want to discuss it, what else do you I think I want to do?

*rubs hands in decidedly Heep manner*

About Mal, you're quite right, gentle sir. It would have been much more interesting to have lil Mal Stu fored to confront his... well, absence. Because the problem is not that he's shady - me likes shady - or that is ethics are, frankly, shit; the problem is that he's Harry Potter: what he does is right by definition and right means Good because he's the Hero and Heroes are Good so what He does is Good. Circular un-logic. :-D

Ah, yes, Zoe. And our old argument. Which, I know, will never be resolved, but I can't help bringing up from time to time. To whit: male persons and female persons (amn't I SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO politically correct?) can't see things from the same point of view - alright alright each person is a universe in her/his self and no two point of views are equal... still I mantain that men and women don't exactly see things the same way because of hormones and culture. To you a 'strong' woman may be one who does things like a man, to me she's a cultural transvestite - not a real one, a person who has all my respect.

The problem with this line of argument is that all examples I can think of are, as everything in life, open to interpretation and that most interpretations come from the dominant culture. So it's a kind of Ouroboros, innit? I know why I react the way I do to character and not another when other people may not see much difference between the two, but I alway react to subtext and subtext, alas, is a matter of interpretation and interpretation is... You can see how this one goes.

So I actually much preferred Inara (I think that's whossname's name) because, for all she's a pathetic cliché and, quite frankly spit at by the author, at least she's female. The grease-monkey too is female, the problem with her is that she's such a token character she doesn't get to exist at all. Zoe... she has tits and a cunt, probably, but she ain't female. She thinks like a male. In the sense that she's written like a male with tits, just like so many males in bad slash are female with pricks. I can't explain it better than that and I fully realise how pitiful of an argument that is, so fire away. As estrogen is my shield, I fear nothing. Yea, though I walk in the valley of the shadow of testosterone I will walk on and menstruate like a geyser of blood to drown my enemies in... or somesuch superstitious drivel. :-D

As for the 'tart' thing. It's not that whoring is illegal, it's that a woman who does is both a necessary commodity and an IMMORAL BITCH at the same time, so she has to be redeemed by her 'heart of gold' which generally means the hero gets it for free. Tart is not exactly 'bad' per se, but 'culturally bad' in that she won't give it to you on demand, as is her duty, but demand money with sexual balckmail, hence branding herself as cold and hard and things. But no fear, lil menthings, she's got a heart of gold, rilly rilly and she'll end up being all mummy like and free sex like for you.

Paradox, thy name is patriarchal culture.

Alliance is oppressive how? I mean, they do fuckshit. They are oppressive because the bellboys (nice uniform, BTW, I laughed like a sieve) insult the Nominal Hero? They are oppressive because they send meds to places in the thrall of plague? How exactly is it oppressive apart from the fact that the dialogue says so non-stop (anvils I was talking about - also anvils in that everytime someone says 'things are going well' disasters ensue)?

Huh?

Huh?

:P

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[info]elena_takami
2007-11-05 01:02 am UTC (link)
In Firefly, Inara's problem is that what she does is legal and supposedly a highly desirable profession, but you never see that. Her work is always kept way in the background, and Mal's so busy looking at her funny you never get to see Inara on her own, doing her job. So her job is never allowed to be seen in any kind of positive light, because Mal dosn't see it in a positive light.

My problem with Kaylee is that her major defining point seems to be that she has a crush on Simon. Oh, and she's a mechanic. A -girl- mechanic. It seems a rather heavy handed attempt to go "oh look, non-cliche here".

(comment read, by the way; I did say it was a mini-essay. I'm not so sure about the cultural background; I know manga says that Japan is heavily patriarchal, but manga does not = real life and I haven't made any kind of serious study outside my reading material.

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[info]flyingskull
2007-11-05 01:33 am UTC (link)
Ta, luv. Sorry for brevity in that comment, but I am such a truly loathsome bitch that I hate to say the same things twice...

Your post is really interesting because when one stops to reflect a moment one realises that it's not a manga-only problem. IMO, because Japan is no more patriarchal than USA or UK, actually. USA and UK may be more hypocritical about it, but underneath it all there it is: Women Are [insert your cliché here].

You're absolutely right about Inara. I was all prepared to kind of root for her - though [info]baeraad will tell you I'm not really pro-prostitution - but all we see is this rather vaguely Cleopatran female pining for Mr Stu I Never Fuck No Never Not Even Kiss NO NO NO I KILL!

Mal is, after all, Joss Whedon his Gary Stu self. The Universe is how he sees it. *sigh*

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[info]elena_takami
2007-11-05 02:07 am UTC (link)
Hey, not a problem. I might work on it a bit and find some more specific examples when I don't feel like shit from not getting enough sleep.

Now that you mention it, they are much wider stereotypes than I first thought. Western literature tends to have a slightly wider range, but you can still find any number of Perky Schoolgirls not so cunningly disguised as Spirited Lasses.

I really hate the word spirited, by the way. It's like a patronising way of saying "stupid, stubborn, and in need of taming by a Man." And it's used for nervous and highly strung horses.

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[info]flyingskull
2007-11-05 04:14 am UTC (link)
And it's used for nervous and highly strung horses.

Tsk tsk. The word you want is fillies. As in 'gels are like fillies, they's skittish and headstrong, but after they've felt the bridle'n'whip, they's juuuuuuust affectionate and sweeter than honey'. Which is, unfortunately, the subtext for a LOT of modern writing, especially TV and film writing.

Also, please get enough sleep? I get these 'orriblwe bouts of insomnia as aftereffect of all the meds I had to take for almost two years, so I always get a tad worried when someone I know has sleep problems. Which is verbose to say: Hope it's temporary and you're feeling better now.

HUGZ

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[info]elena_takami
2007-11-07 12:13 am UTC (link)
It's not so much sleep problems as "Elena is an idiot who stays up late when she knows she has to get up and takes on too many work shifts when she's got college" =) I just don't sleep well before about 1am, especially not work nights when I don't get in till 11pm anyway, and I have to be up for college at 7-ish.

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[info]baeraad
2007-11-06 09:02 pm UTC (link)
In Firefly, Inara's problem is that what she does is legal and supposedly a highly desirable profession, but you never see that.

Er, I don't know about that, actually... There are at least two episodes in which she takes on clients and things work pretty much like you'd imagine they're supposed to. It's really not enough to offset Mal's constant moral superiority, but you can sort of see why a Companion is considered a good thing to be.

My problem with Kaylee is that her major defining point seems to be that she has a crush on Simon.

My problem with Whedon's romantic subplots has always been that they seem to appear out of nowhere. Okay, two people are in love, but why? What does he look for in a woman that he finds in her? What does she look for in a man that she finds in him? That kind of thing is not usually explored. It's like the Cupid perspective on love - it just happens, randomly. =]

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[info]elena_takami
2007-11-07 12:10 am UTC (link)
One episode, the guy is a jerk who just wants some eye-candy (and who tries to take Mal on in a fight). The other episode, the guy is a naive kid and Inara was hired by his father. Neither role particularly paints Inara in a good light; she'll date jerks for money and she'll fool kids for money. Where's the ordinary guys?

As for Kaylee and Simon, that too. =P

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[info]baeraad
2007-11-08 12:18 pm UTC (link)
Yes, the jerk guy was yet another incident where Mal turned out to be right against all reason (sigh), but I didn't mean him, I meant the stressed-out politician lady in a later episode. But as for the naive kid, I didn't see him get "fooled" - he was perfectly aware of what was going on (and kind of dead embarrassed about it), and Inara's pep talk seemed to have a greater effect on him than the sex did.

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[info]baeraad
2007-11-05 09:54 pm UTC (link)
At least admit that it's the tiniest bit ironic that you're telling me about inherent psychological differences between men and women, given that we've both got a liberal share of qualities commonly associated with our opposite gender... =] I mean, do you see me as a man or as a cultural transvestite? Answer freely, I don't really need to be regarded as a man (I'm just me, really =]), I'm just curious how you see it.

I guess my point is that while yes, there are certain tendencies, enforced by societal pressure and by differing hormone balances, individuals can still be fond anywhere on the spectrum. Now, making all women taciturn warrior types would be iffy, seeing as women have a tendency towards being chatty and peaceful - but making them all be like that, well, isn't that stereotyping? There is such a thing as taciturn, aggressive women, after all, so why not give them some representation as long as you don't present them as the norm?

Ahhhh, I see what you mean with the tart thing. Yeah, that's annoying.

As for the Alliance, well, they seem not so much actively cruel and brutal as they seem entirely uninterested in the wishes or well-being of their subjects. Oh, and they experiment on entire planets and turn teenage girls into brain-damaged killing machines. I can sort of see why the Serenity crew think that the Alliance is inconvenient. =]

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[info]flyingskull
2007-11-08 07:19 pm UTC (link)
It's a hell of alot ironic, luv, no ifs and buts about it. Still... I'm starting to think there are no women, really. I mean this culture is so rigid about gender stereotyping I'm not sure anyone really has any idea of what 'natural' (as opposed to culturally imposed and/or rebelled against) differences are.

Certainly there are more similarities than differences, certainly whatever they are, gender differences are slight; it's the individual differences that are clearer to see. Still I never for a moment doubted you're male and I think you never doubt I'm female.

But we're getting into the realm of intuition and feelings, a vague, foggy realm no-one can talk rationally about because it's the irrational part of the thinking process. Hmm, not irrational as such, actually, just not following linear logic. It doesn't go from A to B to C to get at D, it seems to jump from A to D and presents one with the finished product and a sense of the correctedness of said product.

Thus I get the impression that a character - in a show singularly devoided of layered subtexts - is not really female in mindset, but I can't justify it except to say I just feel it. *sigh*

Have I been vague enough for you? :P

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[info]baeraad
2007-11-09 06:31 pm UTC (link)
I'm starting to think there are no women, really. I mean this culture is so rigid about gender stereotyping I'm not sure anyone really has any idea of what 'natural' (as opposed to culturally imposed and/or rebelled against) differences are.

Excellent point, that.

I guess there is such a thing as scientical double-blind tests on the subject. You just inject a number of males with estrogen and a number of females with testosterone and see what kind of new behaviour appears. =] Mind you, one could argue that at that point it's too late - after all, what kind of hormones are floating around our systems while growing up decides how our brains developes too, or so I seem to understand, so there are (statistical) differences that aren't directly hormone-controlled...

I mostly try to ignore the whole subject. It sort of works - you just accept that a certain number of people are, for example, more inclined towards cooperation than competition, and never mind if there's any correlation between that and what someone looks like naked. =]

Still I never for a moment doubted you're male

Thank you for saying so. For all that I tend to boast that I'm a pretty androgynous person, it was still a bit of a shock for me when, earlier this week, I watched my own image in a webcam conversation and went, "aw man - could I look any more gay?" ^_^;;

I mean, I guess the flowing locks don't help, but mostly it's something about the expressions I make. I emote like a woman. It's odd. =]

and I think you never doubt I'm female.

I'd say you're womanly enough. =] There was quite some time when I was sort of, ah, very aware that you were a woman, in fact... ^_^; And just the fact that I can bond with you might mean something, seeing as I tend to make friends almost exclusively with women. So if there really is some intrinsic female quality, I guess you have it. =]

Thus I get the impression that a character - in a show singularly devoided of layered subtexts - is not really female in mindset, but I can't justify it except to say I just feel it.

Well, that's fair enough. :)

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[info]kestrelsparhawk
2007-11-03 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Hmmm. I wasn't a fan of the series at the time it ran (being without tv at all) but a friend loaned me the DVDs and I golloped them up, much as my siblings and mother watched Bonanza eons ago -- for the popcorn moments mostly.

You make excellent points, and it reminded me of the commentary on the feminist sf blog (far away from my home computer, so can't currently provide the address) the other day on the new story (film? tv?) and the Frank Miller law, which is basically that you can decide if male producers/directors/etc. are people or otherwise by figuring out if the proportion of sex workers to women characters who have the same amount of lines and such is at worst 1:1. So if you have 1 woman prostitute with lines, and no other serious women characters, teh guy flunks, and is just another jerk with a fascination for women he can pay for attending to his needs, and provably conquers by not having to pay. (Do NOT get me started on the sick egos of men who think sex workers are somehow working at something more special than, say, cashiers or administrative assistants.)

But given that ratio, Whedon does (barely) get a pass in Firefly.It is an extremely American movie, but then, there are certain British comedies which are distinctly British and actually more enjoyable for that.The Western myth is one of the fundamental myths we live by in the U.S, and while I could wish for better ones, it does resonate for a large percentage of the population. Star Trek, after all, was sold to NBC as "Wagon Train to the Stars."

I'd love to hear how British Imperial history plays mythically in comparison to American Imperial history, btw. I've just stared at my screen for half an hour, wondering what parallels the "Manifest Destiny" myth, which still works today for getting into other countries' problems and messing them up even further.Is it the Great White Hunter? A Rider Haggard version of Indiana Jones? Or something so obvious that I think of it as innate to the culture, but which is in fact the story a people tells themselves which fits the attempted conquering of the world (more or less) and justifies it?

Sorry, that's way off track. I liked the female characters and I love Jayne, crack character that he is.And I loved Zoe's husband, who was the female partner to her "male" self. I believed her, myself, and her strength pleased me. Making allowances for the "super" ness of the protagonists, every one (best mechanic, best pilot, best... etc.) I have known women very much like her, and never thought of them as men in disguise.

Oh, btw, I don't think the Chinese is "pretend" Chinese. I've read a couple of interviews with people involved in the production who commented that the best way to get past the censors was to use the words in chinese which would have been banned in English. And I thought it was a noble, if Heinleinian, attempt to suggest that there ARE other languages besides English in the world.

It just occurred to me -- the western myth must resonate for me too, after all, or why of all the interesting rants and analyses that drop onto my f-list am I responding to comments about a tv series??? Oh well, sorry for filling your in basket, but your commentary was too interesting to ignore.

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[info]flyingskull
2007-11-05 12:04 am UTC (link)
Right, first of all sodding fucking bloody bastard LJ seems to hav stopped sending me postings in email so I had to come in a check and... look, sorry, wasn't ignoring you or anyone else, loathsome livejournal DOES NOT SEND ME POSTS. Prolly a shit conspiracy against lit crit.

So, I actually just so your post five minutes ago when I, irked by a suspicion, came to have a look-see.

Do NOT get me started on the sick egos of men who think sex workers are somehow working at something more special than, say, cashiers or administrative assistants.

Oh, please, DO get started! I can't wait to have a good discussion on that! I mean, discussion in the 'exchange of ideas' sense.

You are right about the American thing and the Western thing. My personal problem with westerns is that they bore me to tears, was not pretending to have a pristine pulpit from which to preach, also because I have absolutely no wish to preach. Blather, discuss, bore people to death, yes; preach, no.

British Imperial whatever doesn't exist. What existed and was utter shit was the English Imperial Genocide Shit. English. NOT British. Excuse me, but I'm only one quarter English and two of my other quarters were victims of the aforementioned English Imperial Shit. If you're curious, the last quarter was at war with the English for centuries. :-D Alright, I'll fess up. Am Jamaican/Irish - French/English. So you can see my spitting take on American history is actually toned down if compared to my fire-spitting take on English history. Still, I see your point and you're right. Sodding Mr Jungle Book Kipling is to English readers what Fenimore Cooper was to American readers. It's actually worse than a myth. It's become an ingrained attitude, so people who wouldn't dream of actually going there and oppressing anyone say and think things that would make the MOST rabid racist proud.

*sigh* I think it's another effect of the patriarchal 'Conquer And Genocide' culture that affects the whole Nort-West of Earth.

I believe the Chinese is real as Chinese language goes, but what the fuck is it doing there? Are there chinese people? No. Are characters doing things that come from the Chinese culture? No. So why the EFFING EFFINF FUCK are they chirruping in Chinese? Whedon is rather famous for having invented fux-swearwords in Buffy, after all. Bitkas? Things like that. Show me the Aliiance is Chinese and I will applaud your Chinese inserts. Show me one member of the crew of Serenity is Chinese and right you are. But as it is? One of the most irritating gimmicks I've had the misfortune to be subjected to.

NEVER EVER be sorry for commenting here, luv. For one thing your arguments are interesting, intelligent and thought-provoking, for another I'm always hugely chuffed and happy when you comment and - because I'm actually channeling Yuki Eiri and his brand of honesty - one posts things in LJ to be read and commented on, the more the merrier and better and YAYAY-like. :-D

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Ooops,
[info]flyingskull
2007-11-05 12:06 am UTC (link)
Sorry for typos

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[info]irrisia
2007-12-14 02:57 am UTC (link)
Hey, it's me, ElenaTakami.

I got bored with my old name and couldn't be bothered paying $12 to change it, so new journal it is. =3

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[info]flyingskull
2008-01-01 02:30 pm UTC (link)
And what a lovely and euphonic new name it is!

Friended you. HUGZ

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